Legally purchased firearms

"wiffleballtony" (wiffleballtony) 12/04/2015 at 23:27 • Filed to: None

5

47

I don’t normally touch subjects like this but, I feel like I need to vent.

The above pictured weapons were used in the San Bernardino terrorist attack. One thing that keeps being stated by less competent or unscrupulous publications are how these were legally obtained. As many of you know, San Bernardino is located in California. Ever since the late 90s, California took it upon themselves to make the 1993 Assault Weapons Ban a permanent law as opposed to most of the nation which sunsetted in 2004. This basically refers to features and the number of them present on a firearm, not necessarily the actual function of the the gun. also went above and beyond to ban weapons that have a “militaristic” purposes by name.

This brings me back to the above weapons. None of them are legal for sale in California. The ARs have multiple features present that preclude them for sale and the 1911s while having a general capacity of less than 10 rounds are considered military weapons. This means they weren’t legally obtained in the state, and as such felonies were committed on their import. This trend is usually seen on other atrocities.

Why aren’t we focusing on the crime of the murder instead of the minutiae of the possession.

EDIT: apparently the ATF agrees. However, the guns were conforming originally before being modified. One AR was modified to select fire, which is a massive violation of the NFA.

fennelbreath > wiffleballtony 12/04/2015 at 23:36

5

Because possession gets both sides riled up = clicks = revenue.

wiffleballtony > fennelbreath 12/04/2015 at 23:37

0

That’s very true. And sad.

Jcarr > wiffleballtony 12/04/2015 at 23:39

6

Because sensationalism and politics.

wiffleballtony > Jcarr 12/04/2015 at 23:41

3

Doesn’t it make you sick to your stomach.

PatBateman > wiffleballtony 12/04/2015 at 23:46

9

Reasonable and logical discussions of the event doesn't generate enough viewers to increase ad revenue (on TV, radio, and the internets).

Berang > wiffleballtony 12/04/2015 at 23:50

0

Were they legally bought, and then illegally transported into California?

SnapUndersteer, Italian Spiderman > wiffleballtony 12/04/2015 at 23:51

0

The 1911 is a military weapon in the eyes of CA Law?

WAT

wiffleballtony > Berang 12/04/2015 at 23:53

0

I updated my post. According to ATF, purchased legally and then modified becoming illegal, locally and federally.

jariten1781 > wiffleballtony 12/04/2015 at 23:54

0

1911s are banned in CA? I don’t believe that’s true. IIRC new ones have to be on their approved list, but used are fair game.

I did see that they also had 30 round mags and a standard (vs bullet button) mag release. Both also felonious.

E92M3 > wiffleballtony 12/04/2015 at 23:55

0

Talk to Timothy McVeigh about gun control. If someone intends to kill they will find a way.

At the same time I don’t understand why so many people feel the need to own an assault rifle.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > wiffleballtony 12/04/2015 at 23:57

1

Why?

It should be plenty obvious by the news cycle for these things which is becoming weekly, if not daily...

Reality is not important. Only the politically correct narrative and mass-media-portrayed agenda are important.

There was an active shooter in New Orleans Louisiana last week that NOBODY knows about, because it doesn’t advance the narrative.

The US news media outlets HELD BACK the culturally indicative names of the San Bernadino assailants for hours in order to allow CAIR to have time to set up a press conference for the assailant’s family, and today their lawyer is vilifying anyone who asserts that a planned and organized attack by prepared and premeditating assailants on religious and cultural basis constitutes an act of terrorism.

Perception, even when it flies in the face of reality. Especially when it flies in the face of what little shred of common sense has yet to be destroyed.

The answer to unprovoked, and dare I say evil use of force is not willful disarmament. Gun control is not gun control, it is citizenry control. It sure as hell isn’t criminal control, it is criminal-enabling.

That is like responding to burglars by volunteering the stuff in your hidden safe that they don’t know about, your garage, storage unit, and your families’ houses, in addition to your house, and taking them to the ATM to withdraw all the money in your accounts, willingly.

It is idiotic, and trying to make sense of idiocy just drives you mad.

wiffleballtony > SnapUndersteer, Italian Spiderman 12/05/2015 at 00:00

0

I can’t seem to find it.

http://certguns.doj.ca.gov/

wiffleballtony > jariten1781 12/05/2015 at 00:01

0

http://certguns.doj.ca.gov/

I couldn’t find any.

jariten1781 > wiffleballtony 12/05/2015 at 00:07

0

Real quick look shows Dan Wessons and a ton of Colt 1911s on there. I’m sure there’s a ton more if you dig around.

Ballzonya > jariten1781 12/05/2015 at 00:07

1

they are 100% legal as long as they have a 10 round mag or less. Source: Me and my 1911 living in CA

El Rivinado > wiffleballtony 12/05/2015 at 00:10

1

My state has the bullet button, my state has ten round capacities, my state doesn’t allow threaded barrels because their deemed “Assault weapons” otherwise (Leaving aside the fact that calling my gun an ‘assault weapon’ because it has a threaded barrel on it, is like calling my Eldorado a sports car because it’s got a spoiler on it). My state doesn’t allow shotguns to be sold with detachable magazines, handguns with barrel shrouds, rifles with flash supressors, etc. and our entire state is a “may issue” on terms of CCW (In fact San Diego County is impossible to sign off for a concealed carry permit on, and we have one of the highest number of active military personal that live here. You can’t get a CCW permit here, unless of course you’re a movie star’s bodyguard, because they’re so important to our state)

My state has all of this, and yet this happened, not even counting the countless number of deaths that happen near L.A from gang violence. So remind me, why am I supposed to swallow this bullshit about gun control working and being necessary?

Also, 1911s can be sold here legally, as long as they don’t have the option to accept double stack mags in the process, and that’s modern 1911s as well, not just 1911s that qualify for C&R status.

Funny thing is, we sell the UTS-15 shotgun here completely unmodified in anyway, and it’s totally 100% legal to own. Kind of funny how we have a gun that would make any anti-gunner’s blood boil in seething fear and paranoia slip under our draconian laws and all you need is 1250 to fork over. Kind of makes you think, doesn't it?

jariten1781 > Ballzonya 12/05/2015 at 00:12

0

That’s what I thought. My friend who lived out there was bitching cause he couldn’t get a custom shop one because the manufacturer didn’t want to pony up for the certification for a small CA only run, but it didn’t sound like he had any issue getting a standard production model.

Thanks for confirming.

Ballzonya > jariten1781 12/05/2015 at 00:17

1

Each handgun model sold in CA must pass the CA “drop test” which can cost a manufacturer tens of thousands of dollars per model...so were really only able to get big name handguns for the most part

jariten1781 > El Rivinado 12/05/2015 at 00:20

0

Haha, they count the UTS15 as having two 7 round mags? That makes me chuckle.

It’s like thumbhole stocks all over again.

911e46z06 > wiffleballtony 12/05/2015 at 00:23

0

I’ll bet you my bottom dollar neither of those ARs has a bullet button

Birddog > wiffleballtony 12/05/2015 at 00:24

0

This crap drives me insane (not really a long drive).

What about the IEDs? Were those purchased legally too?

The Lawyer Shyster representing the family has my blood boiling too. WTF? 7000 rounds of ammo for target practice?

El Rivinado > jariten1781 12/05/2015 at 00:29

0

Yep, 15 rounds of non-stop action and I know a store in Kearny Mesa that has one for sale in the counter. I actually shot one at a shooting range, and it was completely unmodified as well.

Sometimes being obscure and unknown helps a great deal. (Although I suspect that being pump-action gives it more leniency, according to Atlanta Arms' website, the standard version's only illegal in D.C)

Textured Soy Protein > wiffleballtony 12/05/2015 at 00:46

1

I don’t give a fuck about the specific features that make a military style weapon technically legal or not. In modern society where lots of bad people do bad things with guns, protecting the right to own any guns is fucking stupid.

The main purpose of a gun is to fire a bullet. When you fire a bullet at things, it damages them. When you fire a bullet at things that are alive, it injures or kills those things. This is what guns do.

There are way too many guns of all shapes and sizes in this country. The fact that the overwhelming majority of gun owners haven’t shot any people with their guns yet doesn’t matter. Any supposedly legitimate use of guns does not outweigh society’s need to prevent bad people from doing bad things with guns.

Shooting holes in pieces of paper, or deer, or hypothetical home invaders, or collecting them because they’re cool, do not benefit society enough that the need to protect those things must be balanced with the need to prevent bad people from doing bad things with guns. The need to prevent bad people from doing bad things is EXPONENTIALLY more valuable to society.

And frankly, not only do I not trust your average second amendment chest beater to properly use their gun to stop some hypothetical evildoer, I don’t even trust them to never, ever do something bad with a gun. The potential for bad things to happen, intentionally or accidentally, is too high.

Repeal the second amendment. Outlaw all guns immediately. Pay people to give them up voluntarily and melt them down. Proactively round up the remaining ones from people who don’t take the money. Whatever it costs will be totally worth it.

ly2v8-Brian > PatBateman 12/05/2015 at 01:06

1

That was painfully obvious as media swarmed the suspects’ home when the ‘owner’ claimed it was cleared.

ly2v8-Brian > Textured Soy Protein 12/05/2015 at 01:26

0

Yeah, good luck with that. There are more guns than people in this country. More than anywhere else on earth. So, does that mean our crime rates will be the worst in the world? No, they are not even close. The issues are far deeper than blaming the tools.

Textured Soy Protein > ly2v8-Brian 12/05/2015 at 01:46

1

Sure, you can say the gun crime rate in America does not match America’s mass gun ownership. But you’d be wrong, because the actual numbers show that gun crime in America far, far outpaces most other countries .

Go ahead, click that link, it has nice easy to read graphs and everything. SPOILER ALERT: the biggest bar on the bar graph is ‘Murrica.

So basically, your only “reason” we should continue to not restrict gun ownership is to say the exact opposite of reality.

Doesn’t sound like a very good reason to me.

C9200 > wiffleballtony 12/05/2015 at 05:44

1

While each state in the US might have their own laws determining what weapons can and cannot be purchased and owned - it’s not as though there a border checks between states to make sure the weapons aren’t transferred between them.

What this means is that the weapon is at least initially in legal circulation. This makes it massively easier for the weapon to get into the wrong hands down the track.

I’m in Australia, so whatever laws are passed over there make no difference to me, but incidents like this make it pretty clear that a national set of rules restricting these sort of weapons needs to be in place.

PatBateman > ly2v8-Brian 12/05/2015 at 07:00

1

Also, I wonder if the pipe bombs were legal?

/s

wiffleballtony > Textured Soy Protein 12/05/2015 at 10:55

1

Those stats include law enforcement shootings. Not exactly clear cut.

wiffleballtony > Textured Soy Protein 12/05/2015 at 10:58

0

Even if it were feasible to get 3/4 of the state’s to agree to repeal the amendment, locate all the weapons, and have every one be willing to smelt their weapons, you still wouldn’t be able to prevent future guns being made privately or from being smuggled in. You can’t unrung the bell. Also crazy people will find away.

wiffleballtony > jariten1781 12/05/2015 at 11:31

0

Hmmmm, my plain Jane Para Ordnance 1911 wasn’t allowed. Came with a sticker saying so.

wiffleballtony > Textured Soy Protein 12/05/2015 at 11:33

0

Also, that link claims there is more gun crime in Phoenix than all of Mexico. Who is currently in open warfare with multiple cartels and places like Cuidad Juarez are basically battlefields. I’m calling BS.

Also, if you compare gun violence to people being bludgeoned it’s pretty insignificant. The real problem is that people feel angry and marginalized.

jariten1781 > wiffleballtony 12/05/2015 at 12:14

1

Guess Para didn’t pony up the dough for that specific model to get CA state certification. They’ve got a couple approved:

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

Just sort by caliber and ctrl-f for ‘1911’ and you’ll find tons of brands both in .45ACP and other calibers. That won’t even include the ones where the manufacturers give them their own names (ex. Nighthawk Talon) or the ones where they’re listed by model number (eg. all the Springfield Armory stuff).

Textured Soy Protein > wiffleballtony 12/05/2015 at 14:25

0

Obviously getting something like what I want implemented, in the real world, would be difficult, and is not realistic to expect that our fucked up gun-obsessed culture would ever actually vote for it.

That doesn’t change my point that what we should do is abolish our fucked up gun-obsessed culture.

I hear arguments like “there are already so many guns out there, there’s no point in trying to stop them,” all the time.

Not only would I abolish private firearm ownership, I would make it illegal to manufacture guns above certain quantities required for military and law enforcement use. Gun manufacturers are not shady fly-by-night businesses. They are large corporations subject to the laws of the land. Either they comply or they go out of business. If a few thousand gun company workers lose their jobs, well, sucks for them, they shouldn’t be working at a place that makes deadly weapons.

Textured Soy Protein > wiffleballtony 12/05/2015 at 14:28

0

There is nothing on the link I included that indicates the numbers include law enforcement shootings. Where are you getting that? From your anus?

Textured Soy Protein > wiffleballtony 12/05/2015 at 14:33

0

This chart does not say there are more total gun crimes in Phoenix than Mexico. It says that there are more gun homicides per 100,000 people in Phoenix than Mexico. That’s literally right there in the bottom left corner where it says “Firearm Homicides per 100,000.” Which means that as a percentage of the total population , more gun homicides happen in Phoenix than do in Mexico.

wiffleballtony > Textured Soy Protein 12/05/2015 at 14:50

0

I know a dozen people with CnC machines that make their own receivers. My point is that you can make more laws but the knowledge is out there.

wiffleballtony > Textured Soy Protein 12/05/2015 at 14:51

0

I used search engines to find the data they were referring to, which includes law enforcement shootings. No need to be personal.

Also this might be of interest http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/c…

wiffleballtony > Textured Soy Protein 12/05/2015 at 14:52

0

It amounts to the same conclusion, still BS. Because Mexico is a paragon for law enforcement integrity and flawless reporting.

Textured Soy Protein > wiffleballtony 12/05/2015 at 15:20

0

I’m collecting this stuff into all one reply.

If you searched for the data my link is referring to and have some sort of evidence that supports your claim that the data in my link includes law enforcement shootings, show it to me. Because nothing in the link you provided says “these homicide rates include law enforcement shootings.”

Show me what you’re using to reach your conclusion. I want to see it. Saying you googled it doesn’t count. Show me what you found.

As for Mexico, even if I were to agree that Mexico’s numbers are suspect because of rampant government corruption, it doesn’t throw into question ALL THE OTHER COUNTRIES THAT ARE NOT MEXICO that still have ridiculously lower gun crime than America.

First off, Mexico isn’t even on this chart. Secondly, you can’t say “Mexico is corrupt and probably under-reporting their gun homicide rate, so all those gun homicide rates in the UK, Austria, Germany, Iceland, Japan, Switzerland, Ireland, Norway, Spain, Netherlands, Italy, Denmark, France, Luxembourg, Canada, Greece, Sweden, Australia, Belgium, New Zealand, Portugal and Finland are also wrong.”

As for a few people with home CNC machines who make gun parts, that is such a smaller number of people and manufacturing capacity than the current situation of large corporations mass-manufacturing guns. If the gun companies go away, their manufacturing capacity is not going to be immediately replaced by a bunch of gun nuts with CNC machines in their garage.

Let me make this as simple as possible: there are a whole bunch of countries out there that have way less guns than America and way less gun crime. One of the countries on this list, Australia, actually implemented a plan like I want to do here, of buying back guns from the population. That plan was put into place by a conservative government.

wiffleballtony > Textured Soy Protein 12/05/2015 at 15:50

0

http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/pol…

Here’s the important bit “ The Atlantic report pegged Phoenix’s per capita gun-homicide rate at 10.6 per 100,000 people, and Mexico’s only slightly lower, at 10.0 per 100,000. It’s not clear what time frame the statistics cover.

In making that comparison, it’s important to note that not all homicides are gun deaths. A 2013 report issued by Mexico’s National Statistics and Geography Institute found the country’s overall homicide rate was 22 per 100,000 people in 2012. That far exceeds Phoenix’s overall homicide rate, which, according to the Federal Bureau of Investigation, was 8.3 per 100,000 during the same calendar year.”

Point being that despite Mexicos strict gun laws, they still have twice the murders. Gun or not. Also there are so many differences between the small European countries and the US that pegging crimes to guns excludes a lot of other variable like poverty and education.

I respect your opinion as that what makes this country great. However, I don’t agree with your plan.

Ryan A. > SnapUndersteer, Italian Spiderman 12/05/2015 at 17:01

0

Well back in the 1940’s...

Textured Soy Protein > wiffleballtony 12/05/2015 at 21:20

0

The fact that people in Mexico manage to find a bunch of non-gun ways to kill people does not support a conclusion that we should have a gun free-for-all in America. It just means that Mexico sucks.

Look, you’ve spent a whole lot of time saying basically the same shit: “the gun crime rate in America isn’t so bad, so therefore we should do absolutely nothing new to regulate guns.”

First off, that’s just stupid. Secondly, it doesn’t do anything to refute my core point:

Any supposedly legitimate use of guns does not outweigh society’s need to prevent bad people from doing bad things with guns.

You haven’t said any reasons why we should have guns.

Admiral-cb > wiffleballtony 12/06/2015 at 01:51

0

I have a simple solution to this problem, if it is full or semi auto, it should be illegal. If you get caught possessing one, it's an automatic felony with jail time.

What is the purpose of a handgun or a ar15? It's certainly not to hunt... I've got no problem with hunting rifles or shot guns that need to be reloaded instead of being able to fire off 10+ shots in rapid succession.

wiffleballtony > Admiral-cb 12/06/2015 at 11:00

0

Both were originally purchased in semi auto. One was converted to full auto. That’s already a felony per the NFA. At least 10 years prison time for possession. Obtaining a legal full auto is extremely difficult and expensive. Civilian models are rare, sometimes in the 15k region, plus a massive background check. Military versions are only available to government entities and security firms.

AR15s are very popular in varmint hunting. The light fast round is perfect for that job. Handguns are the weapon of choice for personal defense are are specifically exempted per Hellen Vs DC.

Admiral-cb > wiffleballtony 12/06/2015 at 12:05

0

My point is that if it’s extremely difficult to get semi-auto weapons, it might decrease a lot of this in the future. If semi-auto weapons were illegal in every state, it might have been a lot more difficult for these people to get them.

The point that a lot of people fail to see is that while better gun control might have failed to prevent this shooting, how many other incidents would it keep from happening in the future?

Also, a handgun might be the best method of self-defense, I believe that they are also responsible for the most gun deaths in this country. If a law were made banning hand guns, I feel perfectly comfortable defending my house with a shotgun.

wiffleballtony > Admiral-cb 12/06/2015 at 14:58

0

Maybe. In this case the terrorists also used bombs. Plus they may have used revolvers or shotguns just as effectively, especially considering there was little resistance. How many nut jobs would have given up if guns weren’t as available? I’m guessing none.

Handguns are expressly protected by SCOTUS. Banning them would be impossible without a constitutional amendment.